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Conversations with Sonia & Joe: Power and Hierarchy

Friday, July 11th, 2014

POWER AND HIERARCHY

Sonia March Nevis and Joseph Melnick

Sonia:  Let’s talk about power and hierarchy.

Joe:  The higher we are in the hierarchy, the more power we have. Power allows me to make my own decisions. I don’t have to wait. I get to decide what we have to do and you don’t.

Sonia:  This is true in families and organizations.  That’s why I don’t like talking about hierarchy without also talking about power.

Joe:  Of course with families, the relational hierarchy is always shifting in response to the development stages of the children. It shifts in organizations too as a function of changing situations, tasks, and working relationships.

Sonia:  I saw two women yesterday whose mothers made their life miserable. So many women don’t know how to raise children. They don’t know how to manage the hierarchy. Parents sometimes give it up, they give away the power—the power to decide and influence. And sometimes parents do the opposite; they become rigidly hierarchical.

Joe:  It’s hard to talk about hierarchy and power without focusing on the culture and goals of the organization. Often in non-profits or volunteer organizations, the hierarchical relationship and the ability to influence is fuzzy. In military organizations or surgical units hierarchy and power tend to be clearer and more fixed.

Sonia:  A place where we get into trouble stems from the fact that many of our beliefs about power and hierarchy are shaped in our childhood.

Joe:  Yes, when I teach this module with one of our colleagues we talk about the differences in our growing up. She grew up Catholic with nuns for aunts and became a nurse. She was taught to respect positional power and hierarchy. As a student nurse she was taught to exit the elevator if it was full and a physician was waiting to get in.

My upbringing was very different. My father was anarchistic; a union man with a chip on his shoulder—and a hater of fixed hierarchy.  I remember the controversy I stirred within the faculty when, as a young assistant professor, I insisted that graduate students call me by my first name. Now my granddaughter, age eight, goes to a private school where the children call their teachers and administrators by their first names.

Sonia:  I grew up with no hierarchy. My father disappeared when my mother died and I was sent to live with a series of families as an outsider. Because I was “temporary,” I didn’t have to conform or rebel.

Joe:   My parents had a disrespect for hierarchy so I didn’t have to rebel against them. But when I see a hierarchy that is rigid, my belly tightens up and my adolescent self reemerges.

Sonia:  I just ignore it.

Joe:  I remember when we invited the leadership group of a police department to spend a day with us as clients so our students could practice our model1.  The chief walked in with his flip chart and markers. With barely a hello, he ignored you and our students and began organizing the day.

Sonia:  Yes, I remember. He said nothing to me. He jumped right over me and started taking over the class. I went up to him and explained that we were similar. That outside he is the chief and people need to follow him. But in here I am in charge and he needs to follow me. I went higher than him for the moment. I had to take my power. I needed to be higher than him for us all, including the police and students to have a good experience. Otherwise no one would listen to me. Luckily he smiled, handed me the marker, giving me permission to be the leader.

Joe:  You took your power and he allowed you to take it and to lead. Sometimes you have to take a risk.

Sonia:  Normally, as a consultant coach or therapist, one of the first tasks is to be the leader. Usually I speak to the leader off line, prior to the first meeting,  in order to create enough trust for him to let me lead. But this wasn’t true in this case.  We were all strangers to each other. If it is done well, you are aligned with the top of the hierarchy, and if you don’t shame them, they will support your work.

Joe:  Yes, and it isn’t just the leader who you need to get to follow you. I remember working with a group of litigators once and one of the lawyers opened up a newspaper and started reading it just as I began to talk.  I was first startled. I then began walking around the room continuing to talk. When I got to him I firmly took the newspaper, folded it up and placed it next to him. I didn’t want to fight with him or humiliate him.  I said nothing, and neither did anyone else. We were all fine after that.

Sonia:  Yes, there is often a “magic moment” when the hierarchy and power relationship shifts. It is often non-verbal.

Joe:  Yes. With families that are physically abusive, it might involve a child just standing tall and looking the parent in the eye while being hit.

1 In our Center we offer a one-week practicum applying the Cape Cod Model in organizations. We invite leadership teams of organizations to receive a free day of consultation from our students.

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Conversations with Sonia and Joe: Messing Up

Tuesday, March 11th, 2014

Conversations with Sonia and Joe

Over the past 30 years we have enjoyed many conversations around everyday experiences. Some of these conversations have been turned into articles around such topics as intimacy, contempt, love, commitment, power, surprise, jealousy, desire, ethics and optimism. Others sit half-finished in the back of a filing cabinet, while even more have never made it into writing, having instead faded into the air as our interest waned. Yet, no matter the outcome, these conversations have been immensely satisfying to us.

We would like to expand these conversations beyond the two of us by sharing some of them with you, and hearing back regarding your observations, thoughts, feelings and personal experiences. 

Please join the conversation by posting your comments below.  We would love to hear your thoughts.

Sonia March Nevis and Joseph Melnick

Messing Up

Even the best of us messes up often. To turn against ourselves after we mess up is rarely useful. A competent person knows that these things are ordinary and that the next day will bring new mess ups, but, every once in a while, we have a perfect day.

Joe:  I remember years ago you saying that it doesn’t do me any good to feel bad once I’ve messed up. If I wished to feel bad, I should have felt bad before I messed up, not after.

Sonia:  Yes, people turn on themselves rather than saying, “You know I was a jerk that time; I don’t know why I didn’t do that.” Anything that helps put it out, spit it out in an easy way. Knowing that it is a part of life—neither good nor bad.

Joe:  Yes, I can look at almost anything I’ve done and find a hundred ways that I could have done it better.

Sonia:  Yes, me too.

Joe:  We don’t appreciate the ordinariness of messing up.

Sonia:  I think that’s the right language. It’s a waste to put yourself down for almost any reason whatsoever. Now, of course, there are exceptions and extremes, but most people are talking about simple ordinary things. They forgot to do something, they were told not to do something and they are doing it anyway. Or they didn’t invite somebody to a party. We are full of that stuff all the time.

Joe:  Yes. I forgot their name and I feel so badly, or everyone is dressed a certain way and I’m not, or your zipper is open.

Sonia:  Or you fart. There’s always something.

Joe:  We learn to feel bad early. Maybe it’s a need to be perfect. To be more than who I am.

Sonia:  If there are any medals to be given, they should go to people who say, “Whoops, I’m sorry.”

Joe:  I remember when we were kids and we would say, “so sue me, or shoot me.” Kids have ways to brush it off because they mess up so often.

Sonia:  It is important to teach kids to learn to not feel too bad. It’s amazing how people can be humiliated over simple things—like mispronouncing my name.

Joe:  People will often collapse.

Sonia:  I allow my kids to feel bad over mistakes, like saying, “no, you did something wrong.” I think the goal is to not put it on ourselves or on others; to just put it out without judgment. The only way to get rid of it is to put it out in the air—not to take it in and not to blame others. We have to teach people that there is nobody walking around who’s perfect. There’s always someone better. That doesn’t make you bad.

Joe:  I remember working with a couple and I told her she was entitled to feel this bad [spreads his hands 6 inches], but not this bad [spreads his hands two feet]. She looked stunned. It’s as if she didn’t know that she had a choice. She had a choice of how bad to feel. I’ve sometimes asked people, “How long do you want to feel bad for?”

Sonia:  You can feel badly and hold it in or you can put it out. The other thing you can do is to apologize so you can join with someone.

Sonia:  I like that because it is a matter of acknowledging that most of life is still not this [spreads hands wide]. Many people feel terrible even though they have not done a terrible thing.

Joe:  But suppose there is not another person. l suppose I could apologize to myself.

Sonia:  I often laugh at myself.

Joe:  I remember what they do in a lot of parent-training courses. They tell you to tell your kid, “I’m not angry with you, I’m angry with your behavior—that you stole the milk.” I doubt kids believe that. I know two parents who, when their young kids misbehave, have them put their doll into “doll jail” for a time out.

Sonia:  The opposite is also true. We work with people who don’t feel bad when they should. They blame the others and, of course, these are the most difficult.

Joe:  Yes, these are the ones for whom life never changes. We have to learn to own our mistakes, but learn to carry them lightly.

Please leave your comments below.

Conversations with Sonia & Joe: Nobody Owns the Truth

Monday, February 10th, 2014

Conversations with Sonia and Joe

 

Over the past 30 years we have enjoyed many conversations around everyday experiences. Some of these conversations have been turned into articles around such topics as intimacy, contempt, love, commitment, power, surprise, jealousy, desire, ethics and optimism. Others sit half-finished in the back of a filing cabinet, while even more have never made it into writing, having instead faded into the air as our interest waned. Yet, no matter the outcome, these conversations have been immensely satisfying to us.

 

We would like to expand these conversations beyond the two of us by sharing some of them with you, and hearing back regarding your observations, thoughts, feelings and personal experiences. 

 

The following is the first in the series.  Please join the conversation by posting your comments below.  We would love to hear your thoughts.

 

Sonia March Nevis and Joseph Melnick

 

 

Nobody Owns the Truth

 

Nobody owns the truth. There are many ways to look at things since we all see things differently. A competent person is willing to talk to and listen to other people who are different from her.

 

Joe:  As I get older I get more and more amazed at how different people are.

 

Sonia:  The differences are certainly endless.

 

Joe:  Then what do you say to people who believe in “truth” and we don’t? Too often we struggle to connect with people who are eager to talk about their “truths” – often either politics or religion. It’s hard to know what to say.

 

Sonia:  I am thinking of clients who live with “have-to’s” that are truths for them. I sometimes work with women who have to take care of their old mother. A large number say, “I have to go every day or every few days.” They can’t go away for a vacation. I know that I have gotten some of these women to ease up on themselves and I know it is hard for them.

 

Joe:  It is like, “I’m a bad person if I don’t do this.” So what would you say to me if I said, “I can’t stand going to see my mother every day. I have to go”?

 

Sonia:  I would say, “You are not a ‘bad person.’ Your mother might have tried her best for you. Now you have to think of yourself. Do you decide that you are doing right, or doing wrong?’”

 

Joe:  I think that these people who live a life of “have-to’s” are in a daze. They have lousy habits. We “have to” get them to shift the habit or change the context…like, why not send a card?

 

Sonia:  Oddly I am thinking of a woman who could not get her mother off her mind. She had to visit her all the time. I suggested that she send cards. She is feeling relieved. Whether it will hold or not, I don’t know.  The thing of turning on yourself is a big issue.

 

Joe:  We’re back to different truths and beliefs.

 

Sonia:  The word believe—we often hear many “hard-to-believe stories” from clients. They wish us to say, “I believe you.” I can usually say, “I believe you right now.” Sometimes it is easy to say, “I believe you.” On the other hand, when it goes over a certain boundary I no longer say that. What do you say?

 

Joe:  I say, “I believe that you believe.”

 

Sonia:  If someone says I don’t like this fish I can believe them.

 

Joe:  Yes, that’s easy. It’s the separation of beliefs from truths that is important. 

 

 

Let us hear from you!  We invite and encourage your response.  Please join the conversation by submitting your comments in the “Leave a Reply” box (or “no comments” link) below.  

 

 

 

   
Gestalt International Study Center
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